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The Victim’s Podcast
The Victim’s Podcast
Stories Unheard: Are Children of Victims of Enforced disapperances Left Behind ? Amie Ndow shares her work them
What if the pain of losing a loved one was compounded by never knowing their fate? Join us as Amie Ndow, a dedicated PhD researcher from Harvard University, helps unravel the heart-wrenching reality of enforced disappearances in The Gambia. Through her compassionate lens, Amie sheds light on the silent struggles of children left behind, emphasizing how their stories are often overshadowed in the broader narrative of transitional justice. Her collaborative approach views these young adults as vital research partners, aiming to provide them with a voice and a platform to share their experiences and challenges, particularly when it comes to finding closure and justice.
Amie's work goes beyond just research; it is a call for change and recognition. Through powerful storytelling mediums like film and collaboration with local organizations, she seeks to document the stories of resilience among these young victims, ensuring that their battles do not fade into obscurity. The importance of the Truth, Reconciliation, and Reparations Commission's mantra, "never again," is at the forefront of our discussion, serving as both an educational tool and a beacon of hope for future generations. As we explore the impact of government actions, or lack thereof, Amie advocates for the implementation of critical TRRC recommendations, urging society not to move on without addressing deep-rooted injustices.
Creator and Host : Ayeshah Harun , Co - Hosts : Lamin and Fatou
Let's keep the Memories of Victims Alive
Hello, welcome to the Victim Podcast. My name is Lamin Fadran. Coming up in today's program, the creator of the victim podcast, Aisaru Jame, had a chit-chat with Amin Dow.
Speaker 3:So I'm Amin Dow and I am a PhD researcher at Harvard University in the United States, but I'm doing research here in the Gambia, as Aisha said, on forced disappearance. But specifically, the demographic I guess I look into and I work with are those whose parents disappeared.
Speaker 2:Amin Dow will speak on a wide range of issues with Aisha Dujami. With this and a lot more, you will hear in the next 30 minutes. This is the Victim Podcast. Welcome back. In case you are just listening to the podcast for the first time, we are just saying welcome on board. The main objective of the Victim Podcast is to raise awareness about the transitional justice beyond the work of the TRRC and highlight the importance of implementing the recommendations of the TRRC report. This podcast will create a platform for victims, civil society organizations and NGOs to ensure co-raised awareness of the non-recurrence of human rights violations, and the Never Again campaign is achieved in the form of a podcast. You can follow the Victim Podcast on Twitter, facebook or, better still, on Instagram. In today's episode, our guest is Amin Dow and she had a chit chat with Aisera Jame. Let's hear from Aisera and Amin Dow.
Speaker 1:Today I have a very special guest, but I'll allow her to introduce herself and tell you everything about her and what she is doing. So today we're going to have discussions around enforced appearances and she's somebody who had been working with victims of enforced appearances for the longest time, but I'll allow her to tell you exactly what she's been doing on enforced appearances. Welcome on the show.
Speaker 3:Hello, thank you for inviting me. I'm very happy to be on the show. I've been a very loyal listener, so it will be nice to see my name amongst the great guests you've already had. So I'm Amin Do and I am a PhD researcher at Harvard University in the United States, but I'm doing research here in the Gambia, as Aisha said, on enforced disappearance.
Speaker 3:As Aisha said on enforced disappearance, but specifically, the demographic I guess I look into and I work with are those whose parents disappeared. So for most of them, the parent disappeared when they were very young. Currently they're young adults navigating both life in um in the wake of that loss, but also after and after the trc and within the whole continuing transitional process, um. So so, yeah, it's really about both their them and their individual like struggles, journey, but also how they um, how they relate to everything that is happening within the justice process, uh. So, yeah, it's been, I've been doing, I've been working on this, yeah, for a few years now and we'll uh continue to work on this for the next, you know, years coming, um, and it's very fulfilling, um.
Speaker 1:I've made some great connections and friendships, so, yeah, thank you very much, ami, for coming on the victims podcast and I think the job that you're doing with on this project is amazing on your research project, because one thing that we it's like a like an oversight during the transitional justice process is to focus on the victims who had died, their children, victims of rainforest appearances who had died, because, at the end of the day, most of the thing is that, okay, they were young when it was happening, they were all, some were not, some were even babies when their parents were being disappeared and they continue living with that trauma for the rest of their lives and they continue living with that trauma for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 1:Especially, they have not even seen a grave, or even, you know, they could not even show you a place where they see to say this is where my family or my dad or my mom has been buried. And I think this is a very good research work that you're doing because, at the end of the day, how is their lives been? I think this is a very good um research work that you're doing because, at the end of the day, how is their lives been? I think this is a question that I think all of us need to ask ourselves. Um, how have their lives been since their parents were disappeared? You know where, where, how, what, what were the struggles basically that they've been through? Um, but, thank you again. Like you've mentioned, you've been a very loyal listener, which, um, yeah, so let's just go into really some of the things that you've done on the research. Um, I know it has been a couple of months, or even a year, that you've started this research. What are the components of this research work?
Speaker 3:yeah, uh, thank you. So. So I just want to, um, yeah, briefly also comment on what you said. I I also think focusing on young victims and and children is very important. Also, just looking at transitional justice and specifically enforced disappearances that have happened elsewhere in the world. I just have often seen that within the research there has been more focus on, for example, widows or mothers, and it made me particularly interested in the smallest family unit, almost the ones that kind of maybe we don't seem to focus on so much because we think you know they're managing or they're not as impacted?
Speaker 3:Yeah, they'll be fine. So the way I am, the way like the research work for me goes, it's really it's so. So it's within anthropology, which I like my I come from a background in history and I ended up leaning towards anthropology because of the close on the ground connection that you have with whatever you are studying and also because I do strongly believe in the idea of like research partners and not, you know, subjects of of the work. But I really see um all the people I'm working with as a, as a partner within this research and um, so most of it really is about being present, uh as much as I can also like in in both their activities and and especially um some of the more um like work that they do to to to get uh to get some kind of justice or to like um to advocate for their cause, uh, but also because you do see a big difference, of course, like in in that I think that is also the interesting part where, looking I'm, I'm working now like closely with about um I think nine or 10, um of of these um um young adults and, and you see, you you see where there are similarities when it comes to their experience, but also when it comes to certain struggles they're facing now. And then you also see how different directions people have gone into, like how some feel more broken down by it or want to kind of feel like, oh, all I can do is kind of put this aside and just try to go on with my life, and then others really feel like, no, this needs to be. You know, this is, this needs to really be my um, my life project.
Speaker 3:At this point and and and there I think what, um, what I hope like, because most of my research, um, like I've been um, I've been doing, like the time I've been able to come to gambia, every time I I spend doing some research, but fortunately, the coming year I'll be here for longer, so I really hope to again spend as much time as possible with them, getting a good sense of their life, their perspectives, their hopes, their dreams, their struggles, and then, at the end, to be able to put together a research that hopefully can lead to a better understanding of the needs of these young victims and how we didn't, especially also this ongoing transitional justice process.
Speaker 3:We realized, like you said, like how, the fact of a fourth disappearance, not having um, not having a place where we're well not having access to like actual material proof, right of death, like that's still. You still need to go off of someone saying someone who you know you're supposed to just take their word for it that, um, your parent was killed without actually having that, yeah, real evidence, yes, and so that is a big, that's a big part, and especially because, for the child as well, so much of your life has been information that is either you just picked up because no one tells you anything directly, so you hear it from, like, adults talking. In some cases parents say something different, like they, they, they think it's better to tell a lie or to, um, yeah, so growing up with that and then having to still just take someone's word for what happened is difficult very, very difficult.
Speaker 1:And then I think for the most part, for some of us, we've been living a lie yeah you know the lie is about, you know, just telling people what's not true yes um, for the fact that society had made it seem.
Speaker 1:it's like like, not society but the regime made it seem that you kind of discuss about the disappearances of an individual. So sometimes your life is like based on telling people which is not true. Yeah, for example, a lot of people have been telling for the longest time people that my father traveled, you know, my father is in another country, or my father is, you know, busy with work or whatever, um, but in reality the person had either died or yeah like it just disappeared without trace.
Speaker 1:Um, and I think you're really doing great work in terms of just keep bringing these things out, because a lot of people don't understand the realities of children, of victims of enforced appearances, what they're going through, because all of these childhood traumas, the memories, the things you hear would always affect you as an individual and sometimes you just hooked up. You just hooked um just to say I really need to find out, I really need to make sure that justice is served, I really need to make sure that you know you cannot go on with your daily lives because of the fact that this happened to you at a very tender age.
Speaker 1:And then you're trying to just um leave with that reality. You're just trying to accept the reality, um, as a person.
Speaker 3:But it's so important and I and I I think sometimes for for a lot of people who've not gone through this experience, I don't think they understand how, how much like, how traumatic it is and and how in so many different ways and um, and I think sometimes it's just helpful to think about, if you know, um you lost someone, how that process went for you, like, for example, the fact that um every people around you um come and comfort you. That is something that was taken from people who spare and disappear because you're not supposed to talk about it. Um, also, when someone um passes away and you lose someone, people talk, say great things about the person. If the person disappears, a lot of times you can't say anything. Or because of the regime you're not supposed to, you're supposed to almost believe that it's because they were, they did something bad yeah, or it's normal, it's normal, yeah, they must, they must have done some.
Speaker 3:It's just part of the way things go. And then, finally, the importance of just and especially. Well, every religious tradition has it, but in most cases, the Islamic traditions that are supposed to kind of help you through a process of mourning by having these rituals you go through and that's just not there. And and then we do need to ask um, ask ourselves, like, how can we expect, uh, people who have been um, for who all of that has been taken from them, to lead lives that are really, and that's the amazing thing for me is to see how all of you have found ways to cope, like how all of you find ways to manage. But but that should not take away from realizing it's not because someone, uh, because that's often the mistake we, you know, we make a lot of times as we see someone and they're like oh, they looks like they're doing great, yeah, and it's yes, but that doesn't mean they are exactly.
Speaker 1:It doesn't mean that people are doing okay because of, like I've mentioned, there's a lot of traumatic experience, challenges that you've been through growing up and, I think, with the society as well. Sometimes, george, those victims not understanding, because sometimes you hear very painful statements coming from people, especially people that have been disappeared without trace. Sometimes you hear people say, um, they did something wrong. That was why they were either killed or they were being disappeared, you know, and sometimes I'll ask myself, is it like? I'll ask myself, don't we have laws in the gambia if somebody does something whereby, um, you should take the person to court to say, okay, this person did this. We have the court system to make sure the person is guilty or not. Um, but, like you also mentioned, um, these kids, these young adults, they're really, they're brave, yeah, because with all the obstacles in life losing a parent at a young age, without seeing the grave of your loved one, without even having closure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and their moms are also amazing, like they're great Because of most of us. For the most part, our moms in the end mourned. They lived with that until today. Yeah, they're still hoping that justice would be served at the end of the day, without even seeing the remains of their loved one. And I think this is where the responsibility of government comes into play to ensure that um recommendations made by the TRC are implemented around enforced appearances to ensure that remains of these people.
Speaker 3:Which is a specific recommendation that the remains, the exhumations Exactly exhumations, the forensic tests and all of that to be given back to their loved one.
Speaker 1:I know it needs a lot of resources, it needs a lot of capacity to be able to achieve that, but with commitment, with perseverance from family members, government and everyone else, we'll be able to achieve it. Um, so, also, coming back to the work that you do in terms of the research project, um, so one thing that I think could be done, um, you can do as well, I know, which you're already doing, but how, how are you trying to just um make this out there? Yes, for not just these young adults that are affected, but how are you, what mechanisms that are you doing to make sure the general public, which is Gambian as a whole, to really see that these young adults have been going through this and they're they're some of them are really striving well to ensure that their lives are intact?
Speaker 1:yeah, with all the struggles that you've been through so I think, so what really?
Speaker 3:yeah, I, um, I, I'm, I'm really um. I think it's great you're asking that question because I think with with research, it's it's so important, like um, especially when you're doing you know we're doing a project, a research project in uh, that is part of you know, in this case, like a phd, there are, you know, there are like the academic um requirements of like how you write a work, but I think for me that is like the, the main, the most important thing is really okay, how, how, all these important stories, all these important contributions, because a lot of anything that is of importance within the work comes directly from my research partners. You know, like you and others, who, who, who I, who I talk with, who I spend time with, who I spend time with, who I see what they're doing, and so I really I'm looking at different ways. So one of the mediums I work with is film, and it's a little bit in a different way, I guess, than maybe people in general used to with documentaries. It's more because of the, I guess, like close you know relationships and time I spend with some of my research partners. It's more so kind of capturing on film how their process of both making sense of everything, and so that is one thing I'm hoping to have, at least like one or a few kind of I'll see what comes from that, but something visual in that sense, like as a film, but also I mean working with, I think, just working with the organizations you have here.
Speaker 3:And again, when it comes to that like working with these organizations, it's for me also not necessarily having already an idea, I really just want to, once I've kind of completed the research as a dissertation, to really sit with.
Speaker 3:Some of you know, like Yelif, you know, I'd love to kind of see like, okay, how can we now kind of what would be a way to make this, to make sure this research is known by both general public, because I do think there is a lot that needs to happen within just the society, because, like you said, um, the impact was also because of the people that you're, the people around you, not only your family members, your neighbors, strangers on the on the street, like all of that. And then, of course, also for the government, like the Ongoing Reparations Committee, so that they don't forget about the younger people and maybe also so that certain specific things that they bring up can be put on the agenda and put on the table. So, yeah, it's. This is like I, um, within my entire like journey of, like education and and, um, um, and now academia, I've, I've always just cared about the gambia like and and what to do something that is of benefit here. So I I will have failed if I don't.
Speaker 1:That is like my main focus anyway well to be quite honest, it's so evident that, um, because I know how you invested your time, your energy, you know just making that connection with all, all of us, the victims, like the young adults um, just to have a better sense of their lives and what they're going through, which I think it's it's very important because, at the end of the day, I know it's it's a research that you're doing, but I could also see the passion that you have to see that this is, this is a reality, and not just stopping at having the final product. But how can this product be utilized? Yeah, by the reparations commission and all the systems that are going to be in place to ensure that the recommendations of the TRC are implemented, which I think it's a great thing to do, because, at the end of the day, this is not just about the people that are affected. It can happen to any individual, you know, and that is why the TRC mantra which is never again that way it will also educate people.
Speaker 1:It will also raise awareness around and force appearances to be specific and other human rights violations as well, so that nobody would just come and then want to violate the rights of people and then you just, you know nothing would happen to you. So it's going to be an eye-opener. You know nothing would happen to you. So it's, it's, it's going to be an eye-opener, yeah, and I think, um, it's a great, it's a great um project. That that's, that's that you're doing out there, because for me, um, you know, over the years, even during the tric, when the trc started, the victim center started, it's all about these groups not being really conceded, because if you look at it, it's more like um, just the the direct victims yeah only the direct victims that are affected, um, but you know we tend to forget about, okay, these young ones yeah
Speaker 1:what are their struggles, what are they going through? And I think it's it's really important and sometimes, um, you could see during conversations where, when they speak, you you're, you're amazed by the, the strength that they have going through all these traumas, like from from childhood to to to where they are today and but, like I said, thank you so much for coming to the Victims Podcast, but, finally, what will be your final words to people that are listening? Yeah, and what are you going to tell these young adults? To put in more courage, put in more hard work to ensure that yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I guess I would love to maybe, yeah, end on what you your mention of never again. And I think, um, I think why, why I also think it's important to work with the people I do and that demographic, that age group, is because so much of the work when it comes to never again, it's really, uh, also directed towards younger generations. Idea of like you know you, you know you're the future, you're, you're kind of um and and I think a lot of um, especially a lot of like younger victims. A lot of times the people around them, their friends, their peers, don't really know what happened necessarily to them. And and I think for younger generations, to make sure that they also stay in touch with this past, that they know how it's still, you know it's, they know how it's still, you know it's past but also so present that it makes it so that people just keep advocating.
Speaker 3:And I think we can't go into this idea of like, oh, you know, we just need to move on, because that's what everyone is Like. They're moving on as in, like they're living their lives, but justice must be served and they must be, repair must be done, and I think it's important that that is something that is felt across the population, everyone, the younger ones, the older ones, that we don't lose sight of, both making sure that older generations who we can't you know a lot of people that are passing away before they even receive any justice but also that the younger generations keep feeling connected to it as well and realize that we need to keep you know doing the work, and we need as many allies as we can in this struggle.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much. It was a pleasure having you on the Victims Podcast. Like I always say, the transitional justice process should be everybody's business because it happens in Gambia, it happens to Gambians. Some are not Gambians, but it happened in our territory.
Speaker 1:And I think people have been quiet for a long time and conversations like this would go a long way. I'm not just having these conversations, but ensuring that the memories of victims would still be alive. You know, people would also know that these things happen in gambit. It's more like it's going to be in our history books, obviously. So 10, 20 years down the line, everybody can just, you know, click onto the victim's podcast you know, yeah, these things happen in gambia, so, but thank you again for coming thank you guys, and this was a project by the Women's Association for Victims' Empowerment, wave, on their forensic academic project in Guatemala.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, amin, for having me.
Speaker 2:Well, listeners, that's all about it for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. Until we come on your way another time, another day, have a nice day, Stay in peace. In case you have never listened to the podcast before, that's your chance. If you want to listen to the previous podcast, please download it in our website and also don't forget to subscribe on our Facebook page, Twitter and Instagram. Bye for now.
Speaker 1:Thanks a lot, thank you you.