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The Victim’s Podcast
The Victim’s Podcast
Gambia's Journey to Accountability: Insights from Salieu Taal
Can regional cooperation bring justice for crimes committed under a dictatorship? Join us as we examine the pivotal role of ECOWAS in The Gambia’s quest for post-TRRC accountability. Our special guest, Salieu Taal, the past president of the Gambia Bar Association, offers an insider’s perspective on the collaborative efforts to establish a hybrid court addressing crimes from former President Yahya Jammeh’s 22-year regime. We highlight the collective work of local and international experts, victims' associations, and civil society in striving for justice and underline the importance of maintaining impartiality in this complex process.
Explore the formation of a joint technical committee tasked with drafting a statute for a special tribunal and the substantial progress made by the Gambian government in creating an accountability mechanism for serious crimes. We'll also address the concerns raised by the ECOWAS Parliament about potential interference and the need for continued ECOWAS support to ensure the tribunal’s international integrity. Salieu Taal emphasizes the importance of ongoing victim advocacy and keeping the focus on achieving a fair and just outcome for all. Tune in to understand how international cooperation and local efforts are pivotal in shaping The Gambia's path to justice.
Host - Isatou , Fatou and Lamin
Welcome to the Victim Podcast. My name is Lamin Fadera. On this special episode, the Victim Podcast creator, alistair Tujame, had a chit-chat with the president of the Gambia Bar Association, mr Salu Tal. Well, in this conversation, we will be taking a look at the role of ECOWAS in the TRRC criminal accountability process. The former president Yaya Jame's 22 years rule has brought the Gambia on its knees in terms of human rights records. Several people were abused, tortured, some were killed, others disappeared Are Gambians the only victim of Yaya Jamme Ekowaz nationals are also victims.
Speaker 3:So the victims are not only Gambians but extends beyond Gambia, and I believe Ekowaz has an important role in ensuring that there's redress and accountability for the Crime Committee against the community citizens, not only Gambians. So I think there's definitely a strong case for ECOWAS to be the right partner for the Gambia for the establishment of a special tribunal.
Speaker 2:Well, during this period of accountability process, Sul ECOWAS takes side.
Speaker 3:ECOWAS should be on the side of justice and accountability, so to say that they are taking a side.
Speaker 2:I mean.
Speaker 3:I think that was in my opinion side. But those courts are set up independently and impartially in the full due process and it did not compromise the independence of the United Nations. So if ECOWAS had set up a court in Gambia, in partnership with Gambia, in the Gambia, that in no way would compromise ECOWAS' independence or impartiality.
Speaker 2:So many victims want justice in the country and beyond the source of the Gambia. What advice would Salih Utal give to the victims?
Speaker 3:I will appeal to the victims to continue advocating for accountability. I remember when we had the last function we had at Keriba and I will quote the president of the ECWAS commission when he gave his statement. He said impunity is not an option.
Speaker 2:Well with this and a lot more to come. Remember, don't forget, this podcast is brought to you by Democracy International in support of the Gambia Bar Association for the Post-TRRC Criminal Accountability Process. This is the Victim Podcast. Welcome back to the show. In case you are listening to the podcast for the first time, welcome on board. The objective of the victim podcast is to raise awareness about the transitional justice beyond the work of the TRRC and highlight the importance of implementing the recommendations of the TRRC report. This podcast will create a platform for victims, civil society organizations and NGOs to ensure co-race awareness of the non-recurrence of human rights violations, and the Never Agend campaign is achieved in the form of a podcast. You can follow the Victim Podcast on Twitter, facebook or, better still, on Instagram.
Speaker 1:Welcome to another episode of the Victim'sims Podcast, and today I have a special guest who would introduce himself and tell you who he is and his role that he's playing in the transitional justice process. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3:Good morning, Aisha. It's a pleasure to be finally to be on the Victims Podcast. It's long overdue. I am Sally Utal. I am the past president of the Gambia Bar Association and I currently represent the Gambia Bar Association on the ECOWAS Gambia Joint Technical Committee, which is basically been responsible for drafting the required legal framework for the establishment of a special tribunal between GAMBIA and ECOWAS to be able to try crimes that were committed, crimes and human rights violations that were committed between 1994 to 2017, January.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much, sal, and I think it was good that you've mentioned ECOWAS, and I think our conversation will mainly be centered around entirely your involvement and working with ECOWAS, and I understand that you're part of the technical committee that is working with ECOWAS, and I understand that you're part of the technical committee that is working with ECOWAS to set up the special tribunal that was recommended by the Tribunal Consolidation Commission, right? So can you tell me already what had been done, like where you started with the process, with having this MOE with ECOWAS and where you are now.
Speaker 3:First of all I mean, obviously I'll just take a little step backwards the Bar Association convened a series of stakeholder engagements. I believe you participated in those engagements. Basically, it started back in 2019 to look at the different, to look at options for prosecution. This was prior. This was actually at the time the truth-seeking process was going, was ongoing. Yeah, and that process, through the process, we brought different experts, local and international, were brought in. Of course, the Minister of Justice was a major center of play in this.
Speaker 3:The victims, victim-led associations, civil society and the like came together and looked at, in the event that there's recommendation for prosecution, how can we prosecute some of the crimes that are committed in the Gambia. And through that process, with a lot of work done by experts, there was an agreement that there's a need to set up a hybrid court. There's a court that is a mixture of Gambian international law because, even at that stage, from what we could see, there was a likelihood that some of those crimes may be international crimes, which, as you know, is difficult to prosecute under Gambian law for many reasons. And similarly, the TRRC in their report recommended that there should be accountability and they also gave four different options of prosecutions and one of the options was that there should be a hybrid court, in line with our thinking. Together with the stakeholders and the barbers had a meeting that was themed from truth to justice. I think that was the first time that the government actually acknowledged that the government would be setting up a hybrid court together with ECOWAS.
Speaker 3:Now fast forward. The Gambia government formally approached ECOWAS, expressed their intention to partner with them. It's a co-operative settlement in the Gambia in cooperation with ECOWAS, so it's not an ECOWAS call, it's a co-operative settlement in Gambia in partnership and cooperation with ECOWAS, but really driven by the Gambia. Ecowas in cooperation is needed to bring that international element, to give it international character, similar to what Senegal did with AU in the trial of Issa Nhabri, the extraordinary Chambers in Senegal. So it's a similar model. You just substitute AU with ECOWAS in this case.
Speaker 3:And, of course, why ECOWAS? Gamba is a member of ECOWAS. To start with, ecowas played a very critical role in the restoration of democracy in 2016,2017, during the impasse, and to date, echowas troops are still in the Gambia discharging security functions. So ECHOWAS, I mean, is the ideal partner for the recent mention. Also importantly, one of the most horrendous crimes committed, as revealed by the TRRC is what we call the migrant case, where close to 69 people were allegedly killed and there were Ecuador nationals from Togo, cote d'Ivoire, senegal, ghana. So these are all Ecuador nationals Ecuador nationals from Togo, cote d'Ivoire, senegal, ghana. So these are all ECOWAS nationals. Ecowas nationals are also victims, so the victims are not only Gambians, but extends beyond Gambia. So, and I believe ECOWAS has an important role in ensuring that there's redressing, accountability for crimes committed against the community citizens, not only Gambians. So I think there's definitely a strong case for ECOWAS to be the right partner for the Gambia for the establishment of the special tribunal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so thank you, I wanted to ask this question and I think, which you've already answered, which is why ECOWAS? Because this is a question that everybody keeps asking, even on social media, which you've already answered which is why ECOWAS?
Speaker 1:because this is a question that everybody keeps asking, even on social media.
Speaker 1:Recently you've seen like a lot of posts, people asking why do Gambia even have to go to ECOWAS for them, to support them, and I think which you've answered. For example, senegal did that with AU, and you've also mentioned how ECOWAS had played a key role in maintaining democracy in the Gambia. You also gave example of the migrants who were killed, which involved a lot of ECOWAS had played a key role in maintaining democracy in the Gambia. You also gave example of the migrants who were killed, which involved a lot of ECOWAS nationals that were killed and, of course, ecowas would be the ideal institution to work with Gambia on this.
Speaker 1:So, with regards to, I know you guys have done a lot of consultations as well, in terms of before you got to this point of going to the ECOWAS parliament, there was a lot of consultations that went on. There was a lot of conversation with victims, a lot of awareness raising as well, because people need to know what is happening, but we got to see that during the when it went to ECOWAS, there was an opinion made by ECOWAS. So I want you to tell us, to understand, to listen to us, to understand what really happened and whether this opinion is binding or not binding.
Speaker 3:Thank you. I think this is a very I'm glad that you asked this question and I think it is very important to bring clarity to this issue. So Gambia did not go to the ECOWAS Parliament. Gambia, when ECOWAS as an institution, has different arms. You have the commission, the parliament, the court and the authority of heads of states and government. The first entry point of ECOWAS is the ECOWAS commission, which is like the executive of ECOWAS. Basically it's like executive, like the government of ECOWAS Okay, executive.
Speaker 3:So Gambia approached the ECOWAS commission and expressed its intention to cooperate with ECOWAS for the establishment of a special tribunal to try crimes under Gambian law and international law, given the fact that some of the victims were also ECOWAS nationals and the crime happened within ECOWAS territory, specifically Gambia, and some even in Seminole. Following that engagement with ECOWAS Commission, the ECOWAS and Gambia government, ecowas Commission, the ECOWAS and the Gamma Government, ecowas Commission and the Gamma Government agreed that a joint technical committee be set up to look at the modalities of establishing these special tribunals. And I'm privileged to be one of the members of the college JTC. And also we had ECOWAS. I mean members of ECOWAS from the commission, the head of legal legal officer and also two members of ECOWAS court were part of it and then, of course, minister of Justice, minister of Foreign Affairs, the victims were represented and were jointly chaired by the Solicitor General and ECOWAS head of legal. So this was like a very diverse group of different stakeholders. Our mandate was to look at what is the best way to partner with ECOWAS to set up a court in the Gambia that has international jurisdiction.
Speaker 3:So, from the Gambian angle, we brought in our Gambian expertise in terms of what are the legal issues within the Gambian legal framework, and ECOWAS experts also brought in the ECOWAS dimension because, as you know, there are things that are within the purview of Gambia that would need legislative approvals in the Gambia. There are also things that need to be approved through ECOWAS processes. So this committee now looked at the draft statute and get the statute approved by ECOWAS, and in the process, we brought in international experts, apart from our local experts, to draft a very, very good statute. I can tell you we brought some of the best of the best in the world to really draft this statute Local, international, from different parts of the world to draft the statute together with ECOWAS experts. Having done that, then this draft statute was submitted to ECOWAS experts from the Ministry of Justice. They came to Gambia and met and also reviewed the draft statute right and also it further went on to to was also reviewed by the ECOWAS ministers of justice, also endorsed and of course it also went to other also have what they call the immediate mediation and Security Council, that is, the ambassadors. They have also had a look at it and also it was also looked at by the Mediation and Security Council of Ministers, where you have the ECOWAS Foreign Affairs Minister and different things. They also looked at it.
Speaker 3:But the next stage would have been for that document to be presented to the heads of state, to be presented to the heads of state authority of heads of state and government, which is the authority that has the power to approve. That has not yet happened, so it has stopped at the technical level. It hasn't gone to the political level. But at some point during this process ECOWAS processes the ECOWAS Commission also forwarded the document for the opinion of the Parliament. So the ECOWAS Parliament is really a consultative and advisory forum. It can only advise and give its views about the process, the document and in the spirit of, I guess, inclusion and making it participatory, the commission asked for the opinion.
Speaker 3:There's a committee that looked at it and the committee submitted it to the Parliament the Human Rights Committee, the Human Rights and Gender Committee. They made the report and in the report, somehow the report was presented to the Parliament and the Parliament gave an adverse opinion. They're saying that they don't think that ECOWAS should get involved in the establishment of the court and that Gambia should be able to establish a court without ECOWAS. And some said that participating in the court would be tantamount to interfering in the internal affairs of Gambia. And some even argued that there was some kind of agreement between the former leader, ecowas, un and EU that basically meant that ECOWAS should not be involved in any accountability, which, as you know, is not the case, because there's no agreement between ECOWAS, au and UN that basically gives anybody immunity from prosecution.
Speaker 3:There is a joint declaration from the ECOWAS, au and UN that negotiated the political exit of the former leader, but nowhere in the document was there any talk of granting immunity to anyone, and besides, nobody UN, au, ecowas can grant immunity for crimes against humanity or for international crimes. So that legally is not even possible and, as a matter of fact it did not happen. It was just a political agreement between a regional organization, a pan-African organization and the World Body, united Nations, for the sake of peace, to facilitate the exit of the former president. And, of course, the guarantee is given where, basically, that he can come back to Gambia and he'll come back to Gambia, he will have all his rights as a citizen and as an ex-president and also in line with international law and so on and so forth. And that's where it stopped. So in my opinion, obviously the FAS parliamentarians who were arguing obviously needed to be better guided as to what was in that document and, importantly also, I think perhaps if they were better guided or they understood the nature of ECOWAS cooperation with Gambia, they may not come to the conclusion that ECOWAS should not be involved, because ECOWAS is being used as a way of bringing ECOWAS cooperation is required to allow the court to have an international character, just like the AU did before, because under Gambian law we don't have international crimes.
Speaker 3:That's not part of Gambian law. We don't have any statute that has domesticated these international crimes. And even if we were to enact those laws now, they cannot be retroactive, so they cannot be used for crimes that have been committed in the past. So, in other words, we will find it very difficult to prosecute some of those crimes, especially when it comes to things like leadership crime, where leaders give orders. You need things like moral responsibilities and also legal concepts, which are not within our laws. So it's very difficult to convict certain types of perpetrators.
Speaker 3:That's why, and also the gravity of these offenses would be lost if you use domestic laws. I mean, torture is not the same as giving somebody a ham. We don't have enforced disappearances. So many challenges, to name a few. I don't want to get too much into it. So, basically, the ECOWAS Parliament position is an opinion that is non-binding, at best advisory and, I think, not in line with the expectations of the citizens of ECOWAS, because the parliament cannot say that helping a member state address impunity is not the business of ECOWAS, when the same ECOWAS has actually sent troops to this country and many countries as we speak.
Speaker 3:Sierra Leone right they have troops in Sierra Leone, they have no problem with that right and their troops in Gambia, and they've sent troops in Guinea-Bissau before. There's no such thing as taking sides when it comes to accountability when human rights violations are committed against people. There's no ECOWAS should be on the side of justice and accountability so to say that they are taking a side. There's no ECOWAS should be on the side of justice and accountability so to say that they are taking a side. I mean, I think that was, in my opinion, a misunderstanding of what is happening.
Speaker 3:The United Nations has been involved in many peacekeeping missions around the world and it also has set up courts in many countries. But those courts are set up independently and they're impartial and they follow due process and they do not compromise the independence of the United Nations. So if ECOWAS have set up a court in Gambia in partnership with Gambia, in the Gambia, that in no way will compromise ECOWAS independence or impartiality. I think the failure of ECOWAS to participate in this court will actually make ECOWAS complicit in support of impunity. That is the message that impunity is allowed in the sub-region If ECOWAS sits down and falls in hands.
Speaker 3:It is not our business. That is the problem, not to Odovera. So I hope that all this news going around that ECOWAS has blocked ECOWAS has not blocked. It is ECOWAS Parliament that has given an opinion and the Parliament doesn't have the authority to make a decision for ECOWAS. It can only give its view or opinion on the subject. The ultimate decision maker is the authority of the heads of states and government, and that authority of heads of states and government is made. That authority of heads of states and government is made up of the president's leadership efforts.
Speaker 1:The head of states. The head of states.
Speaker 3:The current chairperson is Bolotino Presidentino. We believe that at the next summit in December, the decision on the establishment of the special tribunal in the Gambia will be tabled before the heads of government. And I also believe I'm informed that at the last meeting, even though it wasn't tabled, the president of the province, president Al Mubarak, he actually appealed to the heads of states that support this tribunal at that level, at that international level. So I believe that come December, there's a good chance that ECOWAS will come up with a decision approving the establishment of the special tribunal. And this special tribunal is not being funded by ECOWAS. It's not being funded, it's not from their budget. What is required is their cooperation for its establishment. Yeah, that's it, that's it. And of course, they can support Gambia in our fundraising, because we have to raise funds from different sources, locally and internationally, and ECOWAS can accompany Gambia in that process. And ECOWAS partnership will also assist in the fundraising process for the core. So ECOWAS is a very, very important partner and I think it also will set a good example as to where ECOWAS stands in terms of accountability.
Speaker 3:Ecowas right now, one of the biggest issues in ECOWAS is unconscionable change of government, and at the root of that is injustice in regard to rule of law, which is exactly what we are trying to fix. This is what TJ does. Tj tries to restore respect for rule of law, good governance. So I think the objectives of Gambia is aligned with the objectives of the community and I can tell you that there's a lot of support. The commission is very supportive of ECOWAS and the different organs are very supportive of ECOWAS. In spite of the opinion of the ECHO's Parliament, I believe that once the issue is tabled before the heads of state, I believe we have a very strong chance that there will be a decision of the heads of state to set up this court in Ngambia.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much. I think, sal, you've actually touched on every question that I had with regards to what do you think can be done and how soon do you think this can work with the Gambia, because there's a lot of, like I said, there's a lot of misinformation about the whole thing outside there and when you look at people that are pro the former government, you know are saying that this is more like a shoot under foot. The government actually shoot themselves under foot and victims' confidence for it as well. There's a lot of victims have lost a lot of confidence in terms of the process when this news came out, and what would you tell to the victims out there that would be listening to this podcast? Would you tell to the victims out there that would be listening to this podcast, what would you tell them in terms of building back their confidence, to have confidence in the accountability mechanism process, which is the setting up of the special tribunal?
Speaker 3:I will appeal to the victims to continue advocating for accountability. I remember when we had the last function we had at Keriba, and I will quote the president of the ECOWAS commission when he gave his statement. He said impunity is not an option. I repeat impunity is not an option. I repeat impunity is not an option.
Speaker 3:The government of the Gambia has taken a lot of measures, made great strides towards establishing an accountability mechanism. As you know, the Agamben government, in partnership with different stakeholders, we were able to set up in record time, enact a statute called a special accountability mechanism, also special Prosecution Office Act. These two acts, these are the legal framework needed locally from the Gambian side at this point. All these things were enacted in February. I believe the Chief Justice has already established a special division of the High Court because the system that's proposed has a two-pronged approach. There is the those crimes that can be prosecuted under domestic law would go to a special division of the High Court right, and those crimes that require international law will be tried by the special tribunal. So already a lot of work has been done at the local level. A lot of work has been done also engaging the different processes within ECOWAS. As I already mentioned to you. We've engaged the justice ministers, experts, the justice ministers have also been engaged and even the ambassadors have been engaged. So I think we just have to intensify our efforts to make sure that the ECWA's member states appreciate the importance of setting up this tribunal, not only for Legambia, but for the sub-region.
Speaker 3:I know, when this information came, it was even for me. It was a shock and a blow, topless of the victims, tired victims, and it really broke my heart. I even did an interview just explained, and the Minister of Justice also explained what happened. Even recently, there was a press conference from the Minister of Justice explaining with the Solicitor General and the officer responsible in the new TJJ office, I think, safi Nyang, explaining what has happened. So I think let us not be distracted by those who don't want this to happen. We need to maintain the solidarity, we need to stick together, we need to fight for, for impunity, fight for injustice, we need to be resilient. I mean, it took Liberia 20 years from the report, 20 years until sometime this year for them to have an executive decision to establish a workhouse tribunal. 20 years how long did it take us Two?
Speaker 1:years, not even 10, I guess.
Speaker 3:Not even I mean the process finished in 2021. 2021, yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah 2021.
Speaker 3:And the white paper was released in 2021. The implementation plan came out in 2022, right, and look how far we have done. If you compare what is happening in Gambia with many of those countries, we are actually a shining example.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we have basically a case study A case study I mean to many countries, in terms of the speed at which we're able to get to where we are and also, importantly, in terms of the level of engagement stakeholder engagement, victim involvement, civil society involvement Because this whole process was co-created by the victims, civil society, victim involvement, civil society involvement Because this whole process was co-created by the victims, civil society, the bar, the state and partners and, importantly, driven by Gambit. We own our process. It's not like United Nations coming to serve a court in Rwanda or in Serbia. This is Gambian owned and driven and only internationalized as needed, because we want a process where, after the process, it will help instill a sense of a culture against impunity never again. It will also help develop our judicial capacity, our legal capacity or investigative capacity. We want to be an example to the world and also to have a legal system that is, that is designed and ready to do with all kinds of crime. You call it international and that's what was all in the design of the process and the and it has also has also been a very transparent process and we continue to make it transparent.
Speaker 3:I am not part of government, I'm part of the suicide and the bar, but I've been involved. The bar has been involved from the beginning. We threw out because the government gave us a space, even at the threw out, because the government gave us that space. Even at the international level, the government has given the space for non-government people to be involved, to help and support the process. I think that is commendable, same with the victims. So I think we just have to we should not rest on our laurels, we should regroup, re-strategize.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of misinformation going out. Just today I saw in the paper a headline about somebody you know echoing the same sentiments, I think an MP from Liberia. There are people who are not interested in this happening for many reasons. So we have to counter that narrative. So we have to counter that narrative. We are concerned about ensuring that those who committed serious crimes in Gambia are held accountable. We are not targeting any individual. The Gambian mechanism is not targeting any individual. It's not targeting any group. It's an accounting mechanism.
Speaker 3:Anybody named as a perpetrator will be given their due process rights to a very high standard, international standard, and would be adjudged based on laws that would be fair to all parties the victims, the mean and the accused persons. So there's no victimization here it's about if somebody goes to, if the evidence does not meet the standards, you will not get a conviction. If the evidence is not, you'll get a conviction. It's not a witch hunt. So I think it's, and it's important to understand that accountability is not only for the victims, it's for the entire country. Today you are a victim. Tomorrow I could be a victim. We don't want anybody else to be a victim. That's why justice and accountability is at the center of transitional justice To ensure that it doesn't happen to anyone. It's better if it happens to one person and you don't want it to happen to anyone. It's better if it has to happen to one person and you don't want it to happen to anyone again. And that's why we are very passionate about this process and we want Gambians to understand that this will help build a better Gambia for all of us, a Gambia where anybody who wakes up knows that what happened in those 20 years can never happen to you or your children or your grandchildren. I think that's what we all want. So I think we just must remain persistent, resilient and keep up. Keep on the advocacy, casey, and to make sure that this accountability mechanism is established in time so that we can.
Speaker 3:Those who are found to be have committed those crimes are tried before a court in the Gambia, so that Gambians can see justice close to home. We don't want Gambians to be going to the Hague to get justice. How many governments can go to the Hague to get justice? The victims are here. So the idea is to have a court closer to home, as close as possible to the victims, so that the victim can have a sense that they can have closure, so the governments can have closure, so also others who are in a similar position can see what is happening and be guided.
Speaker 3:I think that deterrent effect is very, very, very important, just like remember when people watched the TRRC. When they saw it, many people were denying that these things happened Until they saw on TV. Some actually went there physically and saw and heard people say that they've done A, b, c and D Things that Gambians thought was not possible in the Gambia. But when people heard it directly from the horse's mouth, they heard it. They see it on television, they heard it on radio, on the internet. It's a different impact. It's a different impact and that's why, also, when you have a trial of people who are public traitors and you demystify them, people can say that look, no matter how big you are, one day you're going to be held accountable like anybody else. Nobody's above the law.
Speaker 3:Accountability is very, very critical. So we must do everything possible to make sure that this court is established and there's accountability. And, mind you, even in the worst case scenario, inasmuch as this is the best way to do it, even if, for some unknown reason, it doesn't happen, there will still be accountability, that's for sure. We cannot say that without ECOWAS. That is it. We want it to happen with the Gambia ECOWAS. That's the ideal way to do it and the best way to do it. But if it doesn't happen, obviously there will be other options, no matter how difficult or challenging it will be, and it will be more difficult, more challenging to do it other ways, but it will be done and it's been done. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Thank you, sal. Thank you so much, sal. I think it was a very interesting conversation and I think you really explained explicitly with regards to how it went and what really happened and in terms of the misinformation out there. And I think now people really understand, because what happens is, as soon as something comes out, you know media, the media will pick it up and then there's a lot of misinformation out there with with um, with those information. But I'm happy that we were able to have this conversation just to clear the air with regards to this issue of echoers and how, how it all went and I was happy to speak with you and thank you very much for allowing me to speak to you. Like you mentioned um, after how many years now I can remember, but it's been so many months when we had planned this conversation that it never happened. But thank you again. How many years now I can remember? But it's been so many months when we had planned this conversation and it never happened. But thank you again for coming on. The Victims Podcast.
Speaker 3:It's a great pleasure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you, Saad Thank you.
Speaker 2:Well, this is all we have on today's episode of the Victim Podcast, and many thanks to Aysa Dujame, who had a chit-chat with the president of the Gambia Bar Association, salih Tal. And until we see you another time, you can follow the Victim Podcast on Facebook, twitter or, better still, on Instagram. Don't forget also to subscribe to our page. You can also follow the other episodes that you might have missed on the Victim Podcast. You can also download, share and follow as well, until we come in another way another time with another episode. Bye for now, thank you.