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The Victim’s Podcast
The Victim’s Podcast
Seeking Justice -Struggles of Enforced Disappearances in The Gambia - Muhammed Sandeng
What if your loved one disappeared without a trace, leaving behind a void filled with uncertainty and fear? In this gripping episode of the Victims Podcast, we invite you to listen to the powerful testimony of Muhammed Sandeng, whose father, the politician Ebrima Solo Sandeng, was extra judicially killed by The Gambia's National Intelligence Agency. Muhammed shares the harrowing details of his family's ordeal, facing threats and intimidation from state officials, and the excruciating suspense that came with the lack of information about his father's fate. Hear firsthand the emotional and psychological toll this tragedy has taken on Muhammad and his family, and his cautious optimism about the TRRC’s recommendations.
The episode doesn't stop there. We delve into the broader issue of enforced disappearances in The Gambia, exploring the systemic challenges that impede justice. From the absence of strong domestic laws to the dire need for enhanced forensic capabilities, we shed light on the roadblocks victims face. Muhammad advocates for essential psycho social support and capacity building for those affected, urging the Gambian government to act. Join us in raising public awareness and understanding the profound impact of these crimes, as we discuss the slow pace of justice and the importance of holistic approaches to healing and reparations. Don't miss this compelling and heartfelt narrative on seeking justice for the disappeared.
Host - Isatou , Fatou and Lamin
Hello, welcome to the Victim Podcast. I am Lamin Fadera Coming up in today's program. We'll be talking about enforced disappearance in the Gambia without trace. Mohamed Sandeng is the son of the late politician Ibramon Solo Sandeng, who went out for a peaceful protest demanding for electoral reform in the Gambia in April 2016. Solo, as he is fondly called in the Gambia, and other protesters were arrested by the police intervention unit. After two days following his arrest, news emerged that Solo was tortured and later killed by the notorious National Intelligence Agency, commonly called the NIA. The United Democratic Party and the family of Solo Sandin later went out to a protest demanding for the body of Solo Sandin, dead or alive, A year and a half after his disappearance. How was Mohammed and his family coping with the disappearance of Solo Sanden? I?
Speaker 3:was dispossessed of my breadwinner, a source and a figure of support, confidence and courage, which was my father. But also I was left in a great deal of suspense complete, excruciating suspense. Blackout on information, uncertainty, a whole lot of traumatic experiences, having to go on the search, total blackout on information about whereabouts, state of health, condition all of that by father Was Mohamed and his family threatened after they want to know the whereabouts of their father.
Speaker 3:We as a family were notred from finding information practically by threats from state officials, state agency officials who purportedly murdered our father, but would actually threaten us through mobile phones and their presence around our vicinity, which, technically, is preventing us from searching for our loved one by whatever means possible, and so that really results in a lot of unanswered questions.
Speaker 2:Is Mohamed optimistic about the outcome and of the implementation of the TRRC report with regards to enforced disappearance?
Speaker 3:I think it's a work in progress and I would not definitely want to be optimistic about it as it is. Like I said, there's so much forensic capacity that needs to be put into identifying the remains of people who were picked out of mass graves, and so it requires total objectivity and also critical expertise, and so I wouldn't want to be so optimistic about that. I would say there's a lot of work that needs to be done.
Speaker 2:What advice will Mohammed give to the government of the Gambia?
Speaker 3:There must be psychosocial support to assist them in the process of finding justice, truth and healing, and so that I would say the holistic thing that I would recommend to be mainstreamed through this process Also, I believe there must also be capacity for victims to really understand what they are advocating for, what they are up against and what it takes, what processes it takes to arrive at actually having to find your loved one's remains, identifying them through running DSA sample tests and all of those things.
Speaker 2:Well with these and a lot more, you will hear in this special interview the victim podcast creator, aisari Jame, had with Mohamed Sandin, who is a secondary victim of enforced disappearances. This podcast is brought to you by the Victim Podcast Partnership with Women Association for Victims, empowerment, wave. You can follow the Victim Podcast on Facebook, twitter, better Still, on Instagram. Welcome to the program.
Speaker 2:In today's conversation, we will talk about enforced disappearance without trace in the Gambia, following his 22 years of dictatorship rule, former president of the Gambia, yaya Jame. Under his watch, many people were killed, some disappeared without trace, others were tortured, while others were arrested and taken to Mile 2 Central Prison. One of the victims of Yaya Jame brutal regime is Ibram Osolo Sandin, who went out for a peaceful protest calling for electoral reform in April 2016. Subsequently, during the protest, he was arrested by the police intervention unit and two days later, news emerged that Ibram Osolo Sandin was tortured and killed by the notorious National Intelligence Agency, nia. The victim podcast, isadu Jame, had a chat with Mohamed Sandin, the son of late politician Ibram Osolo Sandin, who is a victim of enforced disappearance.
Speaker 4:Hello, welcome to another episode of the Victims Podcast on the series with Women Association for Victims Empowerment Wave on their series on enforced disappearances from the Forensic Academy in Guatemala project. Today I have a guest who will be speaking to you about entirely enforced disappearances and what his expectations are with regards to implementing the recommendations around enforced disappearances. Welcome on the show.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much, aisha. My name is Mohamed Sanding and I am a secondary victim of enforced disappearances, and I am happy to share my experience.
Speaker 4:Thank you very much, mohamed. Like I've mentioned earlier, this is a project which is under the Forensic Academy in Guatemala. Mainly they work around enforced disappearances and, as part of Women's Association for Victims' Empowerment, being a beneficiary of the project. So they're trying to raise awareness around enforced disappearances and also give a voice to families of victims of enforced disappearances. So can you briefly tell the listeners with regards to your experience as a secondary victim of enforced disappearances and what impact it has on your life and your family's lives?
Speaker 3:and what impact it has on your life and your family's lives.
Speaker 3:Actually, I am a victim of enforced disappearances by virtue of the extrajudicial killing of my father, who was a political activist but then happened to be murdered by the Yaya Jambon regime for protesting and for leading a peaceful protest.
Speaker 3:So that's how I actually became a secondary victim, and the impact or the consequences of my victimization ranges from, first of all, all like a disposition, I was dispossessed of my breadwinner, to put it that way of a source and a figure of support, confidence and courage which was my father.
Speaker 3:But also I was left in a great deal of suspense, complete, excruciating suspense, blackout on information, uncertainty, a whole lot of traumatic experiences, having to go on the search, total blackout on information about where, about state, state of health condition, all of that by father. And also another crucial experience is the fact that, as a victim of enforced disappearance, we as a family were not able to find information. We were barred from finding information practically by threats from state officials, state agency officials who purportedly murdered our father but would actually threaten us through mobile phones and their presence around our vicinity, which, technically, is avoiding us, I mean is preventing us from searching for our loved one by whatever means possible, and so that really results in a lot of unanswered questions, so much trauma and so much questions left to be answered.
Speaker 4:Yeah, thank you very much. So much questions left to be answered and I think these are basically experiences of victims of enforced appearance everywhere in the world. When your family member get missing, most of the time getting information is a problem. Another thing is just knowing the whereabouts of these people is always a problem and usually in enforced appearances there are stake actors involved, so it's very much difficult with regards to getting really what you really need to know with regards to the whereabouts of your loved ones, and I'm so sorry that this happened to you and I know you, among other victims as well, in the Gambia had gone through a lot of traumatic experiences, as you mentioned.
Speaker 3:So, coming back to another question that I want to ask is Gambia had gone through a truth commission, truth, reconciliation and reparations commission and there were recommendations around enforced disappearances and, as a secondary victim of enforced disappearances, how do you see these recommendations and also whether you see some sort of accountability that will be done in terms of the entire enforced disappearances that have happened in the Gambit to you as a victim Such a tricky question, but what I have understood over the years in my personal experiences and also learning from the experiences of other people and also other jurisdictions, I mean I found out that implementing recommendations on issues of enforced disappearances and also extrajudicial killings which actually most enforced disappearances end up also extrajudicial killings, which actually most enforced disappearances end up as extrajudicial killings what makes it very difficult is one truth there that you have powerful state actors involved most of the time and where there are not state actors, they're actually very powerful, almost as powerful as state actors would be, and so they are very sophisticated in the ways that they disappear and conceal whereabouts of their victims and also existing structures, mechanisms and resources in the specific country, for example, the Gambia, resources in the specific country, for example the gambia also plays, and it's a significant factor in achieving some of the recommendations, for example, in the gambian case, where there's recommendation to identify the remains.
Speaker 3:It's a process that actually takes a lot of resource and time. By the way, my father's remains was found a year after, or close to a year after, he was disappeared and murdered.
Speaker 3:And the process of identifying now the remains also Took a lot of time, take a lot of and also require a lot of expertise, which in my opinion are, and it's actually the reality that the Gambia does not have capacity to that level. And so those, I believe, are some of the challenges that we face the sophistication of the concealment of evidence For example, the church commission in the Gambia and in the revelations that were made there, some concealments are almost inidentifiable. Now you can't identify them, true, for example, graveyards, burials and all that. But, like I said, where you even identify, identify the remains, there's a great deal of expertise, forensic expertise, I know that goes into it and for that I believe, the dedication of resources is quite an important but with with an intent to really find these things out. It takes a process, I think it's. It takes a long, but the process also requires dedicated passion towards it, which is so, so, so tedious.
Speaker 4:You think you've really summed up the entire conversation with regards to I think these are things that were recommended by the Truth Commission making sure grave sites are found, also ensuring that remains of loved ones are returned to their family members for proper burials and, as well, setting up an accountability mechanism to ensure perpetrators that committed these crimes are prosecuted. And we've seen that government have started some of these processes in terms of setting up these committees, like the Enforced Appearance Committees, and you know things are actually happening. But, as a victim, do you think that we would attain justice for victims of enforced appearances, bearing in mind that enforced disappearances is ratified in Gambia but not been domesticated? And I think there's a gap? There's a huge gap in terms of Just ordinary Gambians understanding the effects of enforced disappearances in the lives and livelihoods of victims, Because these conversations are conversations that we that are in the space understand, but, like a normal person, a normal citizen on the street might not understand these things. So what would you tell people that are listening to you as a direct victim?
Speaker 3:so that's where I'd like to cut my biases, because I, as much as I am a victim, I also happen to transition into being a player in the transitional justice process, and so, um, I don't want to always sort of feign my understanding yeah and excuse for the slow pace, let's say, or other issues that may not be understood by somebody else in a similar situation like my.
Speaker 3:I mean being a victim but not being a player to understand these situations correctly, but in my perspective, which I would only be able to speak in my own perspective it's a process which actually takes so much. But I also believe that existing laws, for example the Convention Against Enforced Disappearances has been ratified by the Gambia, but we don't have domestic laws that actually prohibit these crimes or actually render them punishable during the time they were committed like wholesomely, but I also believe there has been.
Speaker 3:I mean actually, like I always like to refer enforced disappearance as a process, like an end result. It has a process that ends there. So I think some of the laws that I would advocate for is the fact that we need to sort of strengthen the ways that people actually act on these laws. For example, why must anybody be detained without their rights to knowing why they're detained, their rights to visitation, their rights to judicial representation, judicial legal representation and so those are some of the factors that lead to ultimate enforced disappearance, and so for me, it is that we look at enforced disappearance as an issue.
Speaker 3:We problematize it in that aspect, in that perspective, that there should not be any arrests without proper identification of offenses.
Speaker 3:There also should not be arrests exceeding a particular number. But you find out that in Gambian law there's still some pockets of laws that could sort of be proposed to enforce this appearance. But nonetheless, I think the process is on, and, for example, in the setting up of the accountability mechanism that's going to actually prosecute these cases. I think it's a work in progress and I would not definitely want to be optimistic about it, as it is, like I said, there's so much forensic capacity that needs to be put into identifying the remains of people who were picked out of mass graves, and so it requires total objectivity and also critical expertise, and so I wouldn't want to be so optimistic about that. I would say there's a lot of work that needs to be done.
Speaker 4:There's a lot of work that needs to be done, as you can hear from Mohamed Sandling, who's a secondary victim of enforced appearances, talking to the Victims Podcast, with regards to the issues around enforced disappearances and also how these recommendations made by the GRC would or could be implemented by the government of the Gambia. So, mohamed, I think we'll now go to the. We'll basically close the conversation. So, which is more around, what would you recommend in terms of support to victims of enforced disappearances like yourself, because at this point, you know being in a state of you know knowing the whereabouts, especially those who have not yet found the remains of their loved ones, because it's always very difficult going through that experience. Some will get flashbacks, you know. Some will just get to a point whereby they lost hope. So what would you tell these um victims?
Speaker 3:that I think it depends on where um if you talk about. I think it depends on who I am talking to. If I am talking to the government, I would say there are specialized um support that should really be offered to victims of enforced disappearances like all other victims of human rights violations. There must be psychosocial support to assist them in the process of finding justice, truth and healing, and so that, I would say, is the holistic thing that I would recommend to be mainstreamed through this process.
Speaker 3:Also, I believe there must also be capacity for victims to really understand what they are advocating for, what they are up against and what it takes, what processes it takes, to arrive at actually having to find your loved one's remains, identifying them through running dsa sample tests and all of those things. I think that would have to do with capacity. But if you're also asking in terms of what international support, um, that the international community would need to give to the gambia, I would say in terms of forensic capacity. We don't have a forensics lab, and this hinders the time in delivery of justice. As you know, there's a number of remains that are still laying down in morgues around the country and yet to be identified, and those families, family members of those people who own those remains, are still waiting for justice, and so it takes a lot of emotional cost. So I would say those are really things to deal with, and so the proponents of a speedy realization of justice would be getting the frameworks right, but also getting the expertise and the equipment.
Speaker 3:let's say of forensics capability for the country to be able to look into all of these things. Those would be my recommendations, really.
Speaker 4:Thank you very much, mohamed, having forensic capability in the Gambia, providing psychosocial support for victims as well, building their capacities to understand these things, because, as he rightly mentioned, this is a process and it has to take a very holistic approach to ensure that these victims get all the support that they need. Thank you very much again, mohamed Sandin, for coming to the Victims Podcast to discuss entirely issues around enforced appearances, and this podcast is basically brought to you by Women Association for Victims, empowerment Wave in collaboration with the Forensic Academy in Guatemala. Empowerment wave in collaboration with the forensic academy in guatemala. Thank you again. Until we come your way with another guest um around and forces appearances, thank you.
Speaker 2:Well, that's all we have for today's podcast. Many thanks to you for listening and many thanks to for the interview and muhammad for passing through the Victim Podcast. You can follow the Victim Podcast on Facebook, instagram or on Twitter. Don't forget. If you have not downloaded the previous podcast, why not download it now? Listen and also share the Victim Podcast on different social media platforms. Until we come on your way another time, have a nice day. The Victim Podcast is brought to you in association with Women Association for Victims and Parliament WAIF. Thank you so much. Thank you.