.jpg)
The Victim’s Podcast
The Victim’s Podcast
The government's role in the special Accountability mechanism process - Special adviser on TJ : Ida Persson
Embark on a journey through the heart of The Gambia's commitment to justice as we welcome Ida Persson, the esteemed special advisor on transitional justice to the Ministry of Justice, to share her expertise on the nation's pursuit of a just future. Witness the meticulous transformation of the Truth, Reconciliation, and Reparation Commission's (TRRC) 263 recommendations into over 350 tangible activities, involving the collaboration of 61 entities. Our discussion traverses the strategic partnership with ECOWAS, establishing a Special Prosecutor's Office, and integrating an international element crucial for prosecuting human rights violations previously unrecognized by domestic law. The magnitude of The Gambia's efforts stands as a testament to its resolve, serving as an inspiring model for West Africa and beyond.
As we peel back the layers of The Gambia's transitional justice framework, we confront the inevitable complexities and challenges that accompany such a grand vision. With a strategic focus on addressing enforced disappearances and the establishment of a reparations commission, we dissect the government's approach to the TRRC's legacy, emphasizing the importance of transparency and communication with victims. The conversation illuminates the dedication to support those affected, mapping out an ambitious plan with a 2027 horizon and a robust $150 million budget. Through this lens, we appreciate the intricate balance between serving justice and nurturing trust within the legal system, acknowledging the high expectations and the arduous path that lies ahead.
Closing our profound conversation, we turn our attention to the nuanced concerns surrounding the implementation of The Gambia's Special Accountability Mechanism (SAM). The insightful dialogue addresses the intersection of local expertise and international cooperation, stressing the delicate dance of maintaining domestic leadership while inviting global assistance, potentially from Commonwealth and ECOWAS professionals, to fill essential judicial roles. We rise above the challenges, offering up The Gambia's story as a beacon of hope, a narrative of courage that redefines the boundaries of transitional justice. It's a resounding call to action for all those committed to the pursuit of accountability, healing, and the unwavering declaration that human rights violations have no place in our future. Join us to embrace the spirit of 'never again' that The Gambia embodies in every stride towards a just and reconciled society.
Creator and Host : Ayeshah Harun , Co - Hosts : Lamin and Fatou
Let's keep the Memories of Victims Alive
Hello and welcome to the Victim Podcast. I am Lamine Fadera. In today's podcast, we speak to Ida Pershing, who works for the Ministry of Justice as a special advisor on transitional justice. Well, after the truth, reconciliation and reparation commission finishes its mandate in a two and a half year of hearing, over 392 witness testify people who were adversely mentioned into committing crimes victims and also witnesses as well. The report was submitted to the President of the Republic on November 25, 2021 and it was made public on 24 December 2021. While the government white paper was released on Wednesday, the 25 May 2022, what step is the Ministry of Justice taken to ensure that the government white paper will be implemented? What are the number of recommendations accepted by the government?
Speaker 3:As you all know, there are 263 recommendations that are being implemented, and these recommendations have been transformed into activities, many more activities. So at the moment, the implementation plan has identified approximately 350 or so activities that, if implemented, would result in the full implementation of the 263 recommendations.
Speaker 2:Well, during the course of the transitional justice period, will there be different institutions involved in the implementation process?
Speaker 3:We have 61 implementing entities government ministries, departments, offices, civil society so we have to do this in a very scientific manner and, for me, the scientific document that we have before us is the implementation plan which, like I said, turns every recommendation into activities, identifies the responsible entities, identifies a timeline Now we can discuss whether the timeline is fair or whether we may need more time but also starts to give us an indicative idea of the budget that will be required, the resources that will be required.
Speaker 2:Despite the giant step taken by the government of the Gambia. Is there any memorandum of understanding signed between the government of the Gambia and ECOWAS to establish a special tribunal in the country?
Speaker 3:An MOU has not been signed, but instead there has been an exchange of letters. But it's essentially the same thing that an agreement has been reached, definitely that ECOWAS is going to be partnering with the government of the Gambia to establish a special tribunal.
Speaker 2:With this and a lot more you will hear in today's podcast. This is the victim podcast. Welcome back. In case you are listening to the podcast for the first time, welcome on board. Well, the objective of the victim podcast is to raise awareness about transitional justice beyond the work of the TRRC and highlight the importance of implementing the recommendations of the TRRC report. This podcast will create a platform for victims, civil society organizations and NGOs to co-raise awareness of the non-recurrence of human right violations, and the never-again campaign is achieved in the form of a podcast. You can follow the victim podcast on Twitter, facebook or, better still, on Instagram. Well, let's begin the program and start the conversation to hear from the creator of the victim podcast, aisatou Jame, who spoke to either person special advisor on transitional justice, or the Ministry of Justice, who spoke on the government role in the special accountability mechanism, and a lot more. Let's join this conversation, aisatou Jame Heart, with Ida Persson.
Speaker 4:Welcome to another episode of the Victim Podcast, and today I have a very special guest in the studio. We are honored to host a distinguished guest, mrs Ida Persson, the special advisor on transitional justice. Welcome to the Victim Podcast, mrs Persson. Today she will share insights on the ministry of justice actions and plans regarding the implementation, focusing particularly on the special accountability mechanism, but we are also going to talk about what have been done so far with regards to the post-CRC process To our listeners. Ida Persson recently joined the Ministry of Justice as the special advisor on transitional justice. Her role is crucial, providing guidance expertise on the implementation of the transitional justice measures. Her work ensures the process is effective, fair and transparent. But you will hear from her and she will tell you entirely what her role entails and basically she was working with other institutions before joining the Ministry of Justice. Welcome on the Victim Podcast, mrs Persson.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much, aisha, for that warm welcome. I'm very happy and honored to be invited to speak on the Victim's podcast. Yes, my name is Ida Persson. As of the 1st of January this year, I'm advising the Honorable Minister of Justice on transitional justice issues. Prior to that, I've worked for UNDP in the Gambia since 2018. I worked as a transitional justice and human rights specialist, but then later also as head of governance and then, I suppose in another life, I've also worked in UNODC, that's, the UN's Office for Drugs and Crimes on Drugs and Crimes, as well as the ICTR and the ICTY, so some of the UN tribunals. But again, very happy to be here to discuss my role and the work that the government has been doing in the implementation of the TRC recommendations, particularly, as you said, around the special accountability mechanism.
Speaker 4:Thank you very much, mrs Persson, I think, to our listeners. You heard from Ida. She works with the Ministry of Justice and today we are going to discuss a lot about the POSCRC process, but, like I said, mainly on the special accountability mechanism. But before going into that, I would like you to tell our listeners you're joining the Ministry of Justice recently, but then there's a lot of work that had been done in terms of the POSCRC process and also you've been working with victim-led organizations, csos, in terms of just ensuring that the recommendations that are in the government's wide-bip are implemented. Can you tell our listeners what have you done so far since you joined the Ministry of Justice? And before you join? I know there's a lot of things that were made.
Speaker 3:Well, today is the 9th of March, I believe. So I've been in this position for about three months, you're right, though Quite a lot has been done, and mostly geared really towards structuring the government systems so that we can really accompany the implementation process, in fact so that we can lead in the implementation of the recommendations. So the Ministry of Justice has set up a unit, the POSCRC unit, which I had as special advisor to the honorable AG, and this unit is being supported by several state counsel. In time we'll have international experts also working with us. These are subject matter experts on. Well, at the moment we have one on accountability, that's Mr Martin Petrov, but we foresee also working with other experts, reparations, on memorialization, on institutional reforms, et cetera, et cetera, on the constitutional issues. So it's envisaged to be quite a large and vibrant unit. But, as I said, we're just starting. But I am working really with a team of state counsel. I also work with a legal officer, that's Ms Safiya Tunyang, that you all, I'm sure, know of. It's important to put in place a unit that is essentially acting as the secretariat for implementation. I believe this has been explained in the white paper, but also in the implementation plan. There it describes that the government shall put in place a secretariat that will ensure that the four coordination mechanisms on the implementation plan are working, that they're meeting. So these four coordination mechanisms are very important. I think it's important to tell you what they are as well here and to tell our audience.
Speaker 3:Firstly, we have a steering committee. The steering committee is an interministerial committee. It comprises the 18 government ministries that are responsible for implementation. Now, of course, the Ministry of Justice has for a very long time been playing a very pivotal and front view role in implementation, but the reality is that implementation is for all of government. Like I said, 18 ministries are involved in the implementation of these recommendations and a total of 61 national institutions and civil society organization 61. It is quite a lot. Yes, and as you all know, there are 263 recommendations that are being implemented and these recommendations have been transformed into activities, many more activities. So at the moment, the implementation plan has identified approximately 350 or so activities that, if implemented, would result in the full implementation of the 263 recommendations. The point is that the recommendations are broad, there's several, it's very voluminous and it's very important again to just come back to the issue of coordination that we have these four mechanisms in place.
Speaker 3:Besides the steering committee now, which is, like I said, a ministerial committee, we have a partnership platform. The partnership platform is where government will speak to partners and try to coordinate the support that we receive from partners. The implementation process requires resources human resources, but also financial resources and we've been lucky and grateful in the Gambia that our entire TJ process has been supported by quite a number of partners. So this platform allows the government and the partners to coordinate the support that is coming in. We also have two other coordination mechanisms that we've promised the Gambian population in the implementation plan, and these are not just coordination mechanisms, they're also feedback mechanisms. We have the victim town halls, so the victim town halls will be safe spaces for government and victims and their representatives to discuss the status of implementation. It's also a platform, like I said, for the government to directly hear from victims, receive their feedback. And then, finally, there's the Civil Society platform, the CSO platform. Similarly, it's a platform where the government will give briefings, updates and, almost like in a press briefing style, the Civil Society can ask their questions as well. So these are the four coordination mechanisms and I think that's the end.
Speaker 3:The post-TRC unit, the secretariat of the implementation plan needs to ensure that they start meeting, they start rolling out put it that way and combined then we will see that there is more traction, there is more implementation, there is more coordination, there is more reporting, there is more communication, right?
Speaker 3:So this is really one of the main priorities that we have to ensure that all the coordination mechanisms can have their inaugural meetings, you know, in the next couple of weeks. Yes, in that regard, the partnership platform will be meeting next week, for example, the victim town halls. The government has already started communicating with the Alliance for Victim-led Organizations, avlo, to see how we can organize the first one. Avlo will almost be like a co-chair on this platform. The CSO platform as well we're hoping to have after we've submitted the first progress report to the President, and then, of course, the Interministerial Steering Committee as well, where we're just waiting for a few financial support exactly to come through and will also be starting off those meetings. So this has really been the main focus of the Ministry of Justice's post-TRC unit to put in place the structures that are necessary to be able to accompany implementation, noting that the job is very volumous. So if you don't have a system in place, you're not going to be able to follow through on it right.
Speaker 4:Thank you very much, aida.
Speaker 4:If you're listening, I think Aida had really break down what they've done so far, and it's quite a lot of things that have been done at the level of the Ministry of Justice, and I think it's important for our listeners that are listening to this, because most of the time, these are questions that people ask, especially victims and maybe the general public that would say, after post-year, after the TRC process, nothing has been happening, everything is quiet.
Speaker 4:Not, it has been said basically, but you've clearly stated that all these processes are in place, because one important thing that you've stated was that you really want things to work accordingly, because the work is volumous, it's huge, and then you really have to put systems in place to ensure that everything is done accordingly and everything is done in a way and manner in which you will end up getting the implementation of the government's white paper successful, and I think that's really important to have because, at the end of the day, this is why we have the government's white paper, and then, if the planning is poor, obviously the implementation would be poor.
Speaker 4:So, coming back to the topic, which is the accountability mechanism and I think this is something that most of the time, people tend to not talk about it that much, maybe because of, especially in the spaces of victims, most of the time when the issue of accountability comes up, I guess the understanding is not in depth in terms of really how they understand what accountability is. So the Minister of Justice recently have signed an MOU, I guess, with ECHO us right with regards to setting up the SBO, which is the Special Prosecutor Office, right? So can you tell our listeners what does this entail, the MOU, what does it entail and how will it entail? The Ministry of Justice will closely with echo us in terms of setting up this mechanism.
Speaker 3:Thank you, ayesha. I'm sure at some point we'll go back to this discussion about nothing has been done, but I'll park that for the moment and by that I'm sure you're referring to nothing has been done on the implementation of the recommendations. But let's park that. And I agree. Let's focus now on the special accountability mechanism. So the TRC had recommended that essentially all persons that have been found to have committed serious human rights violations or crimes should be held accountable, so really, that accountability is done in a broad, holistic manner and that we're not cherry picking who to essentially find accountable or not. Since then, the government, in its white paper, responded to accept the recommendations but also to say that, in terms of prosecuting persons, we're going to and this is in section 19 and 20 of the white paper we're going to establish a special accountability mechanism. Now we take note that not much detail was provided at the time as to what will the special accountability mechanism entail, and that's because really a lot of thought, a lot of comparison analysis has been going on over the past few years and you really have to be very careful about what policy decisions you make, because they involve, well, I guess there's pros and cons and you need to weigh that and ask yourself what will work for the Gambia at the end of the day, and the victims and the population, but even also the region, and I think that's something that we often forget when we're discussing accountability that, yes, it certainly is about victims, but it goes much beyond the victim society. It really is about all of society acknowledging that impunity will not be allowed to reign, that justice is a fundamental component of development, of peace and security, and that really, this is a commonality that binds us all as Gambians, west Africans, africans and just people. So the special accountability mechanism really, since 2019, even during the TRC process, the government has been engaging with its partners here locally. The Gambia Bar Association has been a strong partner of the government to sort of define what would a post-TRC accountability mechanism look like, bearing in mind that many of the crimes that the TRC was revealing to the people were not really crimes in our domestic legislation. So I mean I think Abdul-Lai Fati was here and he elaborated on this point but torture, for example, enforced disappearance, certainly crimes against humanity. So how could we, you know, using our own current domestic systems, our own judicial framework, prosecute these crimes? It was impossible, essentially just domestically.
Speaker 3:So it went without saying that there needs to be an internationalized element to this, and so the discussions then begin. Well, how? Again there's sort of a series. For example, in the Hussain-Abri trial, the African Union had stepped in to internationalize that chamber. We have other tribunals, like the Special Court for Sierra Leone, where it was the United Nations, right, so, but for us in the Gambia, because of several reasons. Well, firstly, where in West Africa we are a member of ECOS, when you look at the victims that also form part of you know the time in question to previous regime, they're West Africans that are involved. In fact, there's a whole TRC theme on the killing of the West African migrants. All in all, it just seemed like a very natural and obvious choice to then approach ECOS to ask whether ECOS can enter into agreement with the government of the Gambia, and that is what has since happened. Now this is as much a technical process as well as a political process. An MOU has not been signed, but instead there has been an exchange of letters. But it's essentially the same thing that an agreement has been reached, definitely that ECOS is going to be partnering with the government of the Gambia to establish a special tribunal.
Speaker 3:So let's come back to the SAM. Sam is actually a mechanism, right? Special accountability mechanism, which means that it has various compartments or components to it. It has three, so I like to think of it as a triangle with three corners. One corner of the SAM, or one component, is the special prosecutor's office. A special prosecutor's office why? How is that different from our DPP and what it essentially is? It's going to be an independent office with an independent head, the special prosecutor, who receives the TRC files and, for the first time since the TRC handed it over to the government, is going to start sifting through the files and trying to build a case, trying to answer the questions of whether this is in fact a case or not Noting, by the way, that the TRC was a truth commission, not a crazy judicial process, not entirely a court proceeding exactly.
Speaker 3:So there may be documents in there that cannot be used in a court, there may be leads in there that need to be investigated further and so on, and it's important that an office does this, and the government's policy is that an independent person and office needs to do this with personnel that have been vetted, why? I mean, it's a very sensitive process, right, it's a special process. Everything about transitional justice, I say, is special in that we're trying to go through reform processes whilst our governance structures are still intact and still in place. So it's almost like parallel processes that are going on but that are very interconnected. So the special prosecutor's office is a critical component of the SAM. So what would the special prosecutor then do, after they've done their investigations and they've built their cases, and they need to, of course, present this before a court right and for those courts to adjudicate? And these are the two other components, the two other corners of the triangle.
Speaker 3:With the SAM, we will be working with the special criminal division of the High Court, which is within our own High Court, and we know that the Chief Justice has gone ahead and created this court right. This is within his powers and so we have this component ready to go. So if the special prosecutor, you know, in a couple of months' time, were to open the TRC files and decides that, ah, this is a case that we can try entirely using our own domestic laws and our own judicial framework in the Gambia, he or she would just present that, you know, working with the DPP, working with State Council, and they would go to the High Court, the special criminal division of the High Court, right. This could be murder, for example, or kidnapping, or a grievous bodily harm. These are all crimes within our, you know, in the Gambia at the moment. However, in cases where the special prosecutor feels no, these are very serious crimes like torture, enforced disappearance, and we don't have those as crimes in the Gambia he or she needs to have a court that that can be presented to and that's the special tribunal.
Speaker 3:And that's where the partnership with ECOS is necessary, because in order to have a special tribunal, it must have international backing in order to be able to cover international crimes. And that's where the agreement with ECOS comes in. So again, it's not an MOU with ECOS, exchange of Letters. A partnership is there, and what we have done since then is that we, the government, has formed, together with ECOS, a technical committee to work on the legal framework for the special tribunal. Yes, I know it's a lot of processes and a lot of times this goes over the heads of people, myself included, but I think it's very important to talk about this so that you know.
Speaker 3:It's so simple to just say the SAM, but once you start breaking it down into its components and realizing that each component needs to have, you know, a legal framework. And once it has a legal framework, it comes into existence. Once it comes into existence, you now have to operationalize it. It needs to do its work, it needs to have its conclusions. Its conclusions thereafter have to be implemented we start to really gather and appreciate, I hope, the enormity of the task that lays ahead of us.
Speaker 3:So what would I say? In all of that, the work has begun. The technical committee that is looking at the special tribunal, supposed to draft the statute of the special tribunal, supposed to draft the decision of ECOS, supposed to draft the cooperation agreement between ECOS and the Gambia, have started their work. Yes, in that technical committee, it's very important that not only is the government of the Gambia represented, through the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but the judiciary of the Gambia is also represented, the Gambia Bar Association is also represented and the Alliance for Victim-led Organizations is also represented, all in a bid to ensure that we are as inclusive as possible and the views, opinions, concerns of victims, the private bar, the judiciary, our political systems, our legal systems, as well as ECOS's representatives, that we're all able to come together to draft these decisions that are responsive to our various concerns yes, Thank you very much, Aida.
Speaker 4:So my next question. I have a follow-up question on that. So what is the timeline for this to happen? I mean when?
Speaker 3:These are statutory processes, right? So the ECHO was, for example, the heads of states. They sit twice a year. They would sit in June, they would sit in December next year, they would sit in June, december again, and we're working with those time frames. So, in terms of putting in place the special tribunal, we're working as quickly as we can so that we can meet the statutory calendar of ECHO us, you know. But we're really hoping that before the end of this year we're able to put in place the legal framework to establish the special tribunal.
Speaker 3:I wanted to just say that domestically, besides ECHO us and following their own, like I said, statutory calendar, exactly here in the Gambia as well, we're doing what we can to move as quickly as possible. So remember the special prosecutor's office being a component For that one. The government wants that special prosecutor's office to start its work as quickly as possible, even as we're continuing with ECHO us and hoping to have a special tribunal. So the special prosecutor's office we've drafted a bill. It's been validated with a broad range of stakeholders. The victims were there. The Gambia Bar Association actually took a lead role in drafting the bill, with the government as well. We've also drafted another bill called the special accountability bill, the SAM bill, as well. So the SBO bill will establish the office of the special prosecutor here in the Gambia, and the SAM bill doesn't establish anything right now. It's a declaratory bill, announces the intention of the government of the people of the Gambia to ensure that justice and accountability is featured in the post-TRC process. So it says things like we, the people, will make sure that we establish an SBO, that we try all the cases, that we establish a special tribunal to try the international cases. So it's a declaratory bill as well. So those two will be presented before the National Assembly very soon and we hope that the National Assembly will also do their part to ensure that it passes as quickly as possible.
Speaker 3:So really, whenever I'm asked about timelines, I try to be of course, because it is very much about managing expectations. We have an obligation to do that. I think what's important to emphasize is that the work has certainly commenced. It involves a broad range of stakeholders, including the Alliance for Victim-led Organizations. So I think victims can also turn to their representatives and the victim-led organizations to continue to ask for some questions, for the answers to some questions, and that we take note that really we need to move as quickly as possible. So we're hoping that really before the end of this year we can have in place the SBO and even have in place a decision with ECOWAS that makes it such that the special tribunal can be established.
Speaker 4:Thank you, aida. You mentioned earlier that there are specific committees that have been formed that are going to work on different things. You've mentioned the committee for enforced appearances. You've mentioned the committee that is going to be responsible for the ECOWAS thingy. So how will these committees work with when this SBO how to call it, the special accountability mechanism process starts? Let's say, for example, enforced Appearance Committee because, like you've mentioned, enforced appearances is not in our laws right. So how will this committee work with the special prosecutor office to ensure that issues of enforced appearances are brought forward?
Speaker 3:Yes, you're right, the government is organizing the implementing entities in the implementation plan into various task force and, in some instances, committees as well, and I always want for us that are discussing the implementation process to have also read the implementation plan so that we see how the processes are different from each other. So enforced disappearance, for example, you're right, it's a crime, it's their recommendations for prosecutions to happen, and that falls within the mandate and purview of the special prosecutor's office. The special prosecutor's office will have the special prosecutor, the staff, the technical knowledge, the expertise to know how to continue working on the investigations on enforced disappearance and how to build cases. But on enforced disappearance, we know that the recommendations go beyond the justice and accountability and that is why there are 21 specific recommendations that have been made by the TRC on enforced disappearance. All 21 were accepted by the government. One of them, however, which is for the government to pay $32 million, I think, to the migrants, the West African migrants families that one was accepted principally, but essentially, the government's response was that we're setting up a reparations commission which will determine reparations. So we accept it, but at the end of the day, it's for the reparations commission to decide how they're going to go about their own processes right. So for the other 20 recommendations on enforced disappearance, they were all accepted and they're all reflected now in the implementation plan. They've been broken down into various activities 29 activities and some of them, like I said, is just about prosecutions and the special prosecutor's office will know how to work on that. That would be the expertise.
Speaker 3:But many of the other recommendations go beyond prosecutions on enforced disappearance and this is why the International Committee for Red Cross discusses this issue as missing persons and their families, so that it's understood beyond just a prosecution's issue, but very much so about the persons that remain behind, the families that remain behind, and how we support them to come to terms with the loss or the disappearance of a loved one. So it's very important that, besides the prosecutions, there are other efforts going on so that these recommendations are implemented. And there the government we've put together a task force on enforced disappearance or also the task force on missing persons and their families, and we have called together all the stakeholders that are supposed to work on this issue for them, as a task force, to guide the government, to guide each other on how they're going to implement these 20 recommendations, like I said so there, you will find in the task force that the members are really coming from all angles of society. You have, for example, the Ministry of Information is there? Or Communication. You also have this Interior Ministry of Gender is there? Immigrations there. You have, of course, the Alliance for Victim-led Organizations is there. We've even asked the ICRC to also sit on this committee as well, to guide the committee. So the task force's role will be to basically lead in the implementation of the majority of the recommendations, noting that they go beyond prosecuting, but really it's about launching investigations, finding out the whereabouts, but also very much dealing with the families as well and supporting the families through this very difficult, sensitive and often time, very long and complicated process as well.
Speaker 3:I think I wanted to just say, aisha, that we all want implementation to happen quickly, because the TRRC process happened so quickly, really, and it really was done in such a participatory manner, and this is why the Gambia is receiving international accolades in the manner in which we rolled out our truth commission. Now we know that of course, there's always room for improvement and we look forward to reflecting on those lessons learned. But really there's so much applause and rightfully so for our truth-seeking process. Now what that has done is also really raise expectations now that implementation has happened.
Speaker 3:During the TRRC process, all eyes were on one institution the TRRC itself. All resources were on one institution the TRRC itself. But now that we've moved on to implementation, like I said, we have 263 recommendations. We have 61 implementing entities government, ministries, departments, offices, civil society. So we have to do this in a very scientific manner and for me, the scientific document that we have before us is the implementation plan which, like I said, turns every recommendation into activities, identifies the responsible entities, identifies a timeline Now we can discuss whether the timeline is fair or whether we may need more time but also starts to give us an indicative idea of the budget that will be required, the resources that will be required. So I think it's very bold and honorable of the government to say we're going to implement nearly all the recommendations I mean 99.9%, to say that we're going to do it by 2027, despite foreseeing that it's going to cost 150 million US dollars.
Speaker 4:So I know a lot have been done and then things are happening. But then sometimes we tend to not we tend to, but sometimes from the outside, a lot of people, for example victims, would say communication is an issue like. The ministry does not communicate with us, and you hear this a lot of times. Even sometimes when we go to the field we will hear victims say we want to see represented the representatives from the ministry of justice come into us and speak to us. So you are here representing government. What would you say to this?
Speaker 3:you very much I. The first thing that I think the government, the minister, would say to this is that we've heard you loud and clear, it's very well noted, the criticism we think is constructive and it's not falling on deaf ears and the ministry of justice is certainly working very hard to rectify that. Just to, like I said, understand the circumstances in which we're working in. Once upon a time it was just one entity that was doing, you know, this work on TJ, that the truth-seeking aspect of it, you know. But now we have so many government entities that are responsible for doing this work, so the work has really proliferated. Like I said, or it's, it's more than doubled, or troubled it's I don't even know how to quantify it. So just a little bit of understanding that it took a little bit of time to get our house in order and hopefully by having now a post TRC unit myself, my, my staff and colleagues.
Speaker 4:You know communication is our number one strategic priority, really for us and I've seen, I think you you're going to hire a consultant to draft communication strategy.
Speaker 3:I think I saw that somewhere that's right, exactly so immediately in the pipelines is to is to get on board a communications expert firm that will work, embed itself really, with the post TRC unit and to support the government to develop a strategy. Also, we're working with partners to ensure that there's sufficient funding resources of course government will also fund and and and push this but that there's enough essentially resources for us to implement the strategy so that we can be on the radio and on the TV and and to be at events and so on. We're a small team, but we know that if you have a good strategy in place and if you have the resources in place, even a small team can make up, can make a lot of noise. Yeah, so I think that's how the ministry and the government would respond to it, but I of course, as always, have to elaborate a little bit more. I wanted to also say that we are partners in this.
Speaker 3:The government is leading, but the role of civil society, the victims organizations, cannot be overemphasized in terms of disseminating adequate, correct and timely information. So the government does depend on the partnership that the civil society organizations have low, the victim-led organizations have with us, and even there too, we're trying to see how best do we, as quickly as possible, give you information so that you can also disseminate, but also how you can act as a pulse. You know to come back to us and give us feedback as well, and I think I show yourself being a part of this community. You can see some changes, from WhatsApp groups to forms being sent and so on. So, again, when you put in place a structure, you are preparing yourself for a long-term commitment. Putting in place the structure took some time, but it's getting. We're getting there, it's happening exactly, and so hopefully we will now be seeing quite some changes in terms of communication. Yes, we're working on it. Thank you.
Speaker 4:Thank you very much. Either, if you're listening, you are in the studio with other person, the special advisor to the Ministry of Justice on transitional justice, ida. My final question would be do you foresee any challenges in terms of the implementation, in terms of entirely everything that has been happening currently? Because I know sometimes, you know you have. You will obviously have challenges, which I, which I know, but are there any specific challenges you think you would have?
Speaker 3:yes, there are many challenges, without a doubt. Considering that today's theme was really around the special accountability mechanism, maybe I could focus there, but I think also this would extend beyond the SAM technical capacities. This is one area that will be challenging because we're going into a new field, an innovative field for many of us, and so will we have all the experts that we need in place to be able to guide us, but also to be able to transfer their knowledge and experience and expertise to us as well? This is something that I am a bit concerned about because, like I said, the SAM itself is a triangle. It has three components. Each of those components will require sufficient technical experts. Let's take judges, for example. Gambian judges do we have sufficient to that can serve both the special, the special criminal division of the High Court, but also serve the special tribunal? Probably not. We'll have to rely on internationals for that, and I'm worried about that because there's also quite sometimes some rhetoric that, no, we want this to be entirely Gambian, and I know that has been possible in the TRRC process.
Speaker 3:All our commissioners were Gambian, all our heads of units and directors were Gambians, even though they, of course, relied and worked with experts from all over the world. But we were able to. Certainly, you know, lee, exactly, but that was, like I said, just one institution that was happening, you know, at that time. But now we're working with several institutions, several processes, and there aren't going to be sufficient Gambians, I'm afraid, to go around. And how do we manage then that dialogue with the population? That we're still in the lead, you know.
Speaker 3:But, yes, we are going to have to, you know, rely on Commonwealth judges, for example and this is me just speculating here or echo us, you know, or professionals from the echo us region. So I think already now we need to, as Gambians, tell ourselves that we're going to have to. Now we're entering a period where we're going to have to work very closely and rely on friends of the Gambia and within the Sam. I am sure we're going to and this is articulated in the white paper that the process, the entire process, will be as Gambian as possible, but only internationalize when necessary, when absolutely necessary. But I think it's important for us to start giving this message more, because it's more likely than not that we're going to have to depend on or rely on some international experts as well, and that is not de Gambianizing the process you know exactly and I think, on the special accountability mechanisms, we should see it as a West African you know, venture is exactly.
Speaker 3:It's a Gambian process definitely, but it goes beyond us. It does the Gambia at the moment certainly is a, I think, a beacon of hope, certainly when it comes to transitional justice. This is a forum in which I'm, you know, which I find myself in often meeting with people from all over the world that are implementing TJ processes and the Gambia really standing out for that. But besides that, I think, also on justice and accountability, we can also bring quite some good news to the region that we as a people did not allow impunity to reign, that we discovered all these atrocities happened and that we went through a process, a fair process, a transparent process, a well thought-through process, with other you know, west Africans, hand-in-hand, and we tried as much as we possibly could to rectify the errors of our past thank you very much, ida.
Speaker 4:So what will be your final words to tell our daily listeners out there?
Speaker 3:it's a difficult one. It's not one that I try to prepare for before I come into a discussion. I like it to just come off the cuff, and what I'm feeling at the moment is that there's a long road ahead to travel, and there's certainly also a lot of frustration from particularly the victim communities about this long road that lies ahead. I suppose. Just a word of encouragement to say that the government of the Gambia has been traveling this road with you. Yes, it hasn't been a journey alone, though it may sometimes have felt so perhaps, but that hasn't been the case. We have a government that is working on several issues but takes note, hasn't been very good at communicating about it, and that there is certainly a promise to rectify that. But, more importantly, we have to see that the journey is still long and I think we need to buckle up, all of us, to continue to to travel it together in partnership.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I think again, just because we're discussing the SAM, especially accountability mechanism, today, and knowing everything that is involved in operationalizing these three corners of the triangle, these three components but safe to say that they have all been activated, all at different levels, but they have all been activated and there is a team of victim-led organizations, of government officials, of partners in the country, of experts out of the country that are one million percent dedicated to ensuring that this happens. It's going to happen, right, but it will be a long journey. We hear the frustrations. We are working on it. We're still partners in this together, you know, and yes, let's just continue on the good fight. We will certainly see, I think, at the end of the day, the result that we're all hoping for. Thank, you.
Speaker 2:Well, that's all about it on today's podcast on the victim podcast. Many thanks to either person for coming through the victim podcast and a special gratitude to Isiru Jami who has the interview with either person. Follow us on our social media page the victim podcast on Facebook, instagram and on Twitter. Until we see you another time, another episode, don't forget to download and see us on Facebook.